Ask Moxie: The 2 1/2
Can we just talk about this sleep regression?
I talk a lot here about the 4-month sleep regression (when you feel bewildered and bleak), the 8-9-month sleep regression (when you feel defeated and hopeless), and the 18-month sleep regression (when you feel insulted and irate). But I haven’t talked much about the 3-year sleep regression. We’re in the middle of it here (although he won’t be 3 until May), so i thought maybe some of you would like to complain along with me.
The other sleep regressions seem to be characterized by frequent wakings throughout the night, but this 3-year one seems to be all about not going to sleep at bedtime. When he first goes into his bed at 8, and is still awake at 9:45, it starts to piss me off. There’s only so much water a kid can drink, the monster-scarer is in full effect, the temperature is fine, and no you cannot come out and read with me. And, what’s more, your brother needs to stay asleep so he won’t be tired for school tomorrow.
Honestly, at this point I don’t even care if the little one actually goes to sleep, I just want him to be quiet so he won’t wake up his brother. (The progressive lowering of standards also seems to be characteristic of the 3-year sleep regression.)
What I’ve finally come to is that I can provide him the opportunity to sleep, but cannot make him do it. We have a temporary peace with his staying in his bed quietly (so he doesn’t wake his brother) and my not caring if he’s asleep or not. I definitely don’t think it’s something he’s doing on purpose. I think it’s the same thing that happens at the other sleep regressions–the kids are working on something mentally or developmentally, and their bodies and minds just simply can’t sleep right then.
This too shall pass.
Anyone else want to complain about the 3-year sleep regression? (And, moms of older kids, is there one coming at 6 years?)
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Posted by: regiemino |
January 31, 2008 at 03:47 PM
Once in awhile I give them a
Tums and tell them the calcium makes them sleepy. This is totally a
placebo and it works for anxiety often. I don’t do it often. I
don’t want to set them up for a lifetime of psychological
dependance on sleep meds. But when it’s close to midnight and they
have to go to school the next day and they are desperate to go to
sleep, I will do it.
I totally get what you mean
about being able to provide an opportunity to sleep, but not being
able to make them sleep. It is crazy frustrating though when you’ve
got a really sleepy kid and they’re just resisting sleep. I can’t
wait until she’s old enough to tell me what’s going on!
My daughter will be 3 in
March, and we’ve been doing this for two months: repeated getting
out of bed, not falling asleep for hours. Just this week it’s
started to improve (maybe.) My husband wanted to cut out her naps
and see if it helped. I resisted, and now that I know it’s a phase,
I may resist, or change nap to quiet time…
He is back to sleeping well
again, although complains whenever I put him to bed, whether it be
at his usual time, later, whatever. He does fall asleep immediately
thought, so obviously needs it.
Posted by: Julie |
January 31, 2008 at 11:58 AM
Posted by: Bobbi |
January 31, 2008 at 11:50 AM
oh my god this post is
PERFECT TIMING.
Posted by: Julie |
January 31, 2008 at 02:36 PM
B was actually better coming
up towards 6 than he is now, but coming up towards 6 we also
expected him to be struggling with it still, and now we expect him
to handle it better, and funny, he can’t yet. Sigh.
Most people aren’t going to
like this, but in my experience children have sleep issues until
they become teenagers and then they want to sleep all the
time.
Posted by: Alyssa |
January 31, 2008 at 03:40 PM
Every.single.night DH and I
say, practically in unison, “you don’t have to got to sleep but you
have to lay here and be quiet”. It only sorta works.
Moxie, you’re just going
through the ringer lately. Hope someone’s taking care of the
caregiver.
I think it’s the talking
thing – they kick into this superverbal stage and their brains
can’t shut off…For an hour (or more!) it’s all hushed whispers
and endless yakking.
charisse, so funny about the
late night with the baby sitter, no one can ever understand that
pnut doesn’t conk out in the car on a ride home after a late night
out- ever! too much interesting stuff to look at/talk about! to be
fair, we are more nocturnal, and she stays up later than most kids
her age (to spend time with her daddy, we have evening commitments,
etc.) and makes up for it in the morning and during nap.
On an unrelated note, I
could use some assisstance on the parenting without yelling thing.
I know you’ve talked about it before, but I feel like I’ve lost all
my patience lately and am yelling more than I’m not. Any
suggestions would be extremely helpful. My 8 year old daughter is
seriously kicking my ass, and it’s bleeding over onto how I parent
the 3 younger ones…
Thanks, Charisse, that makes
sense, as weird as it is when it happens.
My daughter is now (finally)
falling into an exhaused post-screaming sleep a full 2 hours after
her normal bedtime.
And she *does calisthenics
all day* with no nap at the sitter’s. (The kids there have a
nexercize video. AND SHE IS STILL NOT SLEEPY AT NIGHT.
(Name and email address are required. Email address will not be
displayed with the comment.)
We also went through this
with our 3.5 yr old about 6 months ago. SOOO annoying. At the same
time, she was very sporadic taking afternoon naps so we thought
perhaps she wasn’t tired enough to go to sleep. We then decided to
eliminate the nap all together (i.e. forcing her to stay awake!) so
that she would be super tired by the time bedtime rolled around. It
seemed to have worked. Maybe once a week she takes a nap but it
doesn’t affect her bedtime anymore. The other thing we do is after
reading books (3 only), she can then pick a toy to play with in her
bed by herself. It has to be something simple and not too elaborate
– she usually picks a leapfrog learning game which is perfect. She
now just turns it off when she’s done and/or we’ll go in and say
that it’s time for bed. I’m sure we’ll go through another phase
when she’s reading (I remember doing the same thing!) but I just
reassure myself that’s it’s just a phase (isn’t
everything??)
Posted by: deezydubya |
January 31, 2008 at 01:40 PM
And Bobbi, have you read
“Between Parent and Child?” Most valuable Moxie suggestion, ever.
Genius, genius stuff. Thanks, Moxie!
Oh, YES. My daughter is a
little over 2.5 and she’s been resisting going down AND staying
asleep. It’s not even that she wants to nurse anymore…she just
wants me to pick her up and then rock her back down. Sigh. I am
TIRED, people.
I’ve kind of accepted that
there are some nights she can’t quiet her body and mind by herself,
and our rule is that if she’s actually trying to go to sleep, she
can have a parent with her to help–i.e. if she’s lying still and
quiet on her bed, she can have one of us pat her back. We’ll also
quickly and quietly answer any burning questions and then tell her
to be still again (if we don’t answer them, 1am again). If she’s
not really trying, no company and no lights and no books and no
music, because all of those will keep her up. (We had a sitter try
to read her to sleep last week–got home at 11:30 to “hi mommy, hi
daddy”…sitter was so puzzled that she didn’t bonk out.) So a
zero-stimulation at bedtime approach also helped, but it’s kind of
hard to get Mouse to accept it without the parent in there. Which
is OK if we’ve all eaten together, but if Mr. C is coming home late
and we’re planning a 9pm couple dinner and Mouse is still needing
help at 11:30, I get pretty dang hungry and cranky. Luckily as I
said, keeping the naps low and the exercise high means this doesn’t
happen that often now, and she’s just a more reasonable creature at
almost-4 than at almost-3. She knows she doesn’t want to be tired
for school, etc. Good luck Moxie, hang in there!!
Bedtime is a drag with
Eldest. It’s when my fuse is shortest (although I’ve worked hard,
really hard, since last fall to get myself healthier so I can
handle my temper better… Seriously, I’ve made major changes in my
life (almost) all for the sole purpose of strengthening my ability
to stay calm with her, as my anger was freaking us both out…I
also have lately been trying to be what I laughingly call “a
Surrendered Mom”, meaning I throw up my hands and surrender my own
will in the face of stupid power struggles with her…)
Posted by: Caroline |
January 31, 2008 at 01:49 PM
It stunk, but once we got
past that power struggle, we are now back in a place where, if he
needs me to come back for a few minutes once a week or so, I can do
it and know it’s not going to spiral into an out of control
situation again, and it’s nice to not have to second-guess myself.
We still have nights where he refuses to settle down, but we work
through them as they come.
Oh, and P.E.T. lines up
pretty nicely with my Safe/Respectful/Kind rules – so it isn’t
going to freak out anyone who leans ‘AP’ – though if you’re way
into power/control/obedience, it might be harder to grasp. I just
figure I’m after results, and I get results with it. Remarkably
fast, really. And ones that don’t leave all the burden on
me.
But…no nap, a couple miles
of walking and a couple hours of playground? Out like a light at 9.
(Our schedule runs late in general–she’s just like that.) I do
think this is an age when the need for exercise increases a lot
along with physical strength. But it’s tough in the
winter.
My motto for 2 years old is
UN-friggin-predictable and I had to admit to myself that bedtime
was to be no exception.
I feel so normal reading all
the posts! Thanks.
wow, I had no idea this was
age-related.
my son is the same age as yours, Moxie, he will be three in May,
and started sleeping in a bed in early December – we actually had
to go back to the crib (now with a crib tent on it) to enforce the
staying in bed. If he gets out of bed (and out of his room) more
than a few times, we put him in the crib. And sometimes I think he
honestly needs this because he is so tired but doesn’t have the
self-control to stay in his bed/room when there might be
INTERESTING things going on in the living room. We had about two
weeks of getting out of bed and being put back in for up to three
hours before resorting to the crib tent, and it saved all three of
us. Last week he went five nights a row in his bed, then several in
the crib, and then last night he slept in his bed.
Other friends were able to use a gate to keep their kids in their
room at least after bedtime, but it won’t work for the layout of
our apartment, and honestly he would probably figure out how to
climb over in about a day.
Oy, yes, hello! This started
happening right around when Mouse was 2 1/2 and we were like “up
until 11? what the…? I will say it’s much better at almost 4 –we
got past this, past 5 months of post-3
night-training/bedwetting/shrieking wakeups and now we just have
little stretches of nightmares or worries. (Like this weekend she
got 10 minutes of inadvertent exposure to violent professional
wrestling on someone else’s TV. Guess what time she wants to re-ask
all the questions about whether it’s pretend and why people pretend
to hurt each other and why other people want to watch–which,
anybody got a good answer, btw?–and whether wrestlers can get in
our house?) But even when we do, there’s just a lot less yelling
than a year ago. On everybody’s part.
Can someone please borrow my
kid for a few months?????
A couple thoughts based on
things my friends with older kids have done:
Thanks Hedra – I was hoping
you’d offer suggestions. I will definitely check it out!
I am new to this post and
have found this topic very resourceful. But my 2.5 year old son
goes to bed fairly easy. The problem we have is that he wakes about
4/5 times a night. Everyone seems to be dealing with a going to bed
issue. Has anyone dealt with a waking issue. He calls for me and
wants me to fix his blanket, get him a tissue, fix his lovy. This
happens over and over again throughout the night. I don’t think he
would go for the “you can stay awake but just don’t scream.”
Because when I go in and fix the blanket he goes right back to
sleep but then wakes in another hour and we go through the process
again. He shares a room with his twin brother. Both boys are still
in cribs, with tents. I saw the suggestion to get a night light
that has colors or shapes on the ceiling to help calm them and I am
going to try that. I was planning to convert their cribs into beds
this weekend but now I am having second thoughts since I think he
will just spend the night getting out of the bed. We let him sleep
on the floor in our room once this week when he was screaming. And
he slept the rest of the night but I don’t want to start that as a
habbit. Anyone go though this and what did they do.
Posted by: hedra |
January 31, 2008 at 12:29 PM
and I just want to
add…..they don’t sleep during the day either.
Posted by: Rebecca |
January 31, 2008 at 12:00 PM
Wish I had something sunny
and rosy to say, but we’ve been going through sleep issues with our
3-1/2yo for over a year. Mostly something akin to night terrors,
but also many times not wanting to go to sleep. This is much worse
on days when she has a nap (which is only 2x a week in daycare.)
Most days we can get her in bed at approximately the right time,
and usually she stays there, but it is still maddening. I could go
into more detail, but it depresses me. I do think you’re on the
money with your current approach of he stays quiet and you don’t
care (much) if he’s not actually asleep.
Does this mean they should
give up their naps? Mine still sleeps for 2 hours a day.
Posted by: jodifur |
January 31, 2008 at 01:56 PM
rudyinparis, if you don’t
mind sharing some of your coping methods for a short fuse i’d love
to hear them. of course my fuse is shortest when i’m tired (oh,
what a cruel joke that is) and that’s no fun, but i too have been
working really hard on my patience level, my anger management and
being more kind. some days are better than others. glad to know i’m
not alone.
As for my 6yo daughter,
she’s been complaining of “headaches” and “stomachaches” and “sore
throats” at bedtime (and only at bedtime) for at least 6 months.
And sneaking around reading magazines next to her nightlight. (At 4
years old I caught her one night locked in the bathroom reading
Highlights.) She sleeps through most of her sister’s late-night
ruckus, thank goodness, but the flip side of this is that she also
sleeps through most attempts to wake her up to go potty.
Posted by: Bobbi |
January 31, 2008 at 12:41 PM
We try to be matter of fact,
answer the specific concern, and get them headed back to bed. Don’t
“reward” the wakeful one with too much attention or interesting
activity (turn the TV off), or they will start showing up every
night, just for fun!
Posted by: Lisa V |
January 31, 2008 at 10:52 AM
Posted by: Janet |
January 31, 2008 at 11:01 AM
And she wakes up an hour
ealier each morning…6:45.
My other friend has told me
that it was much easier for her to drop her second child’s nap than
it was her first. It has actually made her life easier not to have
to try to find a place/time to fit that into her already busy day.
So if you have a younger kid who is having this sleep problem at
bedtime and you already have an older kid who is no longer napping,
maybe it might be okay (not great, but okay) to drop the nap? Just
some thoughts. A bedtime anytime after 8 PM sounds like parent
abuse to me.
I never noticed anything
specific with my 6 year old, but he’s the one who never slept
through until he was almost 5…he did go through a stretch of
wetting the bed quite often around that age…maybe related? With
him, you never know…
She’s happy and healthy, I
checked with her ped, who said that the 11 – 12 hours is fine (she
also said that she went through the exact same change with her son
at the exact same time.)
I am going to go knock on
wood right now because every time I think we’ve accomplished
something regarding sleep, it comes back to bite me in the butt.
This was hell for us,
because we could not come to a compromise. I tried because I didn’t
care if he was up all night, I just didn’t want to be affected by
it!
Posted by: kelly jeanie |
January 31, 2008 at 10:34 AM
My son is doing EX-ACT-LY
the same thing as yours (he will be 3 in April). Up for 1-2 hours
after bedtime, usually puttering around in his room. And I’m
responding about how you are (no lights, no noise and fergod’ssake
don’t wake up your sister! but otherwise … stay awake if you
must).
Our triplets are 7 1/2 now,
and it seems that every night somebody appears half an hour after
lights out, wanting something. They invent mysterious pains or
tummy upsets, or they just can’t get to sleep, or they have a
strange question… It used to be just one child who always took a
long time to go to sleep, but now it could be any one of the three.
I’ve given up trying to predict who will “bounce” back up again,
but somebody always does. Sometimes I think they are anxious about
school or other issues, sometimes I think they are seeking
attention, sometimes they are just not sleepy yet.
Posted by: Sheila |
January 31, 2008 at 02:42 PM
Posted by: flea |
January 31, 2008 at 11:43 AM
Our strategy has been to
push bedtime back a bit, and bring back the rocking chair. She was
a co-sleeper for most of 2 years and even now crawls in with me at
3-4AM, so leaving her to fend for herself in the room proved
impossible (we never did CIO b/c she winds herself up into a
frenzy). I find that rocking helps her shut the crazy brain
synapses off sooner and helps her body chill. With luck she’s down
by 9PM (in time for Lost tonight), and then she sleeps until past 8
(blessed sleep for me, being pregnant). It’s not always fun to rock
for close to an hour, but it beats lying there next to her,
answering questions, until 10. I too thought of cutting naps out
but do think it’s too early, as she naps well. I think this is
another sleep regression to add to the list, Moxie! The crazy
verbal 2-3yr regression.
i will tell you when she
gives up her afternoon nap i will get myself committed. i may never
be ready for that. never.
Name is
required to post a comment
As for temper- I am really
struggling with this too and don’t like who I become- usually after
lack of sleep and working full time. But, I am using 1 2 3 Magic-
I’m not sure she gets it yet- but, it is supposed to help take the
anger out of discipline. So, I’m willing to give it a
shot.
Losing the nap sucked for
me, but I eventually got over it.
I thought it was just us!
Thank you so much for this timely post. My son is going to be 3 in
March and lately he just does not want to go to bed. He wants
another book (he has 6 in his bed), he wants water, he just wants
to snuggle…and then when he’s been quiet for an hour or two and I
go up to check on him before I go to bed, he’s still awake,
“reading” a book. At least now we know it’s a phase!
She wakes up once or twice a
night…AGAIN.
I have a 2.5 year old
daughter- we have just switched back to the crib after some
frustrating weeks of sleep. She is still crying out at night and I
want to let her CIO but she is potty trained and often resorts to -
I have to go potty. Which means, I have to go get her. She ends up
in our bed for the rest of the night. I usually consult – Healthy
Sleep Habits, Happy Child and decide if I can commit to it or not.
Right now, I can’t, I’m too tired!
Posted by: Charisse |
January 31, 2008 at 01:09 PM
Yes yes yes….I have the
kid who slept through like a champ from the beginning. And now, at
2 and a half, I think it’s just one more thing for her to fight
with me about. I’m with you on the “don’t care if you sleep, but
will you please STOP YELLING” thing…so frustrating…
I am so glad this post came
today. We are dealing with the same problem with our son who is 2
and a half. We put him down after a full bedtime routine at 8:00
and sometimes he is awake until 9:30. Luckily for us he will stay
in bed and play, sing, talk and “read” but he is awake nonetheless.
The worst is the 6:00 am wake up after falling asleep late. I feel
strongly that we are still dealing with that sleep begets sleep
adage and he is waking up early because of falling asleep so late.
This means days at daycare have also been trying with pushing,
hitting and biting. His daytime naps are only an hour and a half
long so I don’t think they are the problem. I hope this truly is a
sleep regression and we will be back on track in a while. I guess
after reading the other comments our situation could be worse so I
will hunker down and wait this one out.
Good luck – I hope he at
least does stay quiet for you most nights!
Posted by: Erin |
January 31, 2008 at 11:15 AM
This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been
posted.
I remember when I was young
we were always allowed to read in bed after bedtime for as long as
we wanted. Being tired the next day was a consequence of reading
too late. But my mom, a teacher, always allowed reading when we
were not allowed to do anything else.
This was after a few months
of working through fears of shadows, imaginary spiders, etc., so I
was pretty certain it was sheer cussedness that was prompting the
roaming about.
I think my daughter has hit
this early. She’s 14 months old and has been resisting going to bed
at night for a while now (several months). Once asleep, she mostly
sleeps through as long as she’s snuggled up next to me.
Sigh. Parents of elementary
schoolers – do we get a couple of years of good sleep before they
become teenage night owls? Please say yes!
Posted by: MotherLawyer |
January 31, 2008 at 01:33 PM
@Bobbi, the thing that has
helped me the most on the yelling front is thinking of yelling as
just a signpost that the kids are outgrowing my skills. Which means
it’s time to find resources to build new skills.
I am still amazed that he
sleeps so much at this age. He goes 12 hours at night and has a 3
hour nap at midday ( he sleeps even longer than his year old
sister!). He has just started kindy and that definitely tires him
out. Can anyone tell me when kids usually drop their
naps?
I had to get a little super
nanny I’m afraid because he would not stay in bed, so we had a few
nights of me picking him up and putting him back into bed, scream,
run after me, pick up and return to bed, etc.
Posted by: Today Wendy |
January 31, 2008 at 10:12 AM
Please enter
a valid email address
Can I start any more
comments with Oh, and…? Sheesh.
Posted by: SJ |
January 31, 2008 at 10:54 AM
1. it was the middle of
summer, so excruciatingly hot
2. we all slept with windows open and the sun and heat crept in
earlier than usual
3. was getting to the point that he needed less sleep in
general
Totally right there- in fact
in got so bad a few weeks ago that I almost wrote in with a HELP ME
question. My daughter just turned two and is superverbal, ahead of
the curve for the crazy brain-development sleep regressions. This
is what we’re dealing with- the same can’t shut my brain down until
10:00 thing. I hate it. We went from a 7:00 bedtime to a 9ish
bedtime almost overnight.
Oh, and I’m reminded that
the HIGHEST cosleeping rate is between 2 and 5 years of age,
worldwide. That’s the age that even if they didn’t sleep with you
sometimes (or a lot) before, they sleep with you NOW.
Posted by: pnuts mama |
January 31, 2008 at 10:46 AM
I’ll be back to read the
comments wisdom.
I am sooo glad to hear all
this! I have been going thru what seems like a bad dream, every
night for the last two months with my 2 year old (she just turned
two). First she quit sleeping in her crib, we put her to bed in her
sisters bed, then moved her to her crib and her sister from my bed
to her bed, I got tired of that and after Christmas we took the
crib down and brought the toddler bed out, hoping that all she
really wanted was to sleep in a “big girl bed” I was so wrong! Now
she won’t go to bed at all, she concks out at 10:30, 11:00,
11:30…. My other issues which has pretty much been a nightmare
since my second was born is that they share a room, no crying it
out method, nothing. For a long time my eldest (5) would fall
asleep with me reading to her while the little one (at that point
was my sleep angel) would soothe herself to sleep. Now I read my 5
year old to sleep while my husband tries to settle the two year old
down by reading books, from 9-11 we are both trying different
tactics to get the 2 yr old to sleep, something different works
every night. Last night she fell asleep next to me in my bed. My
husband moves her to her bed, two hours later she waddles in to
sleep with us, if we move her again (she must dream about karate
because she sure kicks a lot) she will come into the bedroom again.
Last night I was up at 12:00, 2:30, 4:30 and my alarm rang at 6:30
to get everyone up and off to work, school and grandma’s. I felt
like I was up with a 23lb 35″ new born! She naps great, in her own
bed for an hour (we cut her naptime already to see if that would
help her sleep at night). We have tried to stick with routine, she
gets a bath right before bedtime, same as since she was born! I
just don’t know what to do. This seems like a phase becoming
permamnet. I don’t mind the sleeping with me, I hate the refusing
to go to bed at night, then the cranky over tired behavior kicks in
and the parents are more tired then the two year old. If the two
year old wakes the 5 year old, the 5 year old is crying from being
awakened and is distraught and confused.
God, how I love this
site.
Moxie, you didn’t actually
say whether your 3 y.o. is still napping, but for many other
commenters, that is the case, and I think that is your answer.
People have differing opinions on when kids should give up napping,
but my two older ones gave it up before 3. My older one went to bed
fine, but started getting up at 5 am. My second one started staying
awake in bed for ages, like other commenters’ kids. I first cut the
nap back to 1 hour (they are really cranky and hard to wake up, but
it’s necessary). Later, when the pattern started again, We cut the
nap to once every second day, then out completely. My son, now 3.5,
can nap up to 20 minutes in the car without messing his nighttime
sleep, as long as it’s not in the late afternoon!
I had friends whose kids slept way more than mine, but I think if
your child is not cranky/tired during the day, you need to cut back
on nap time for the sake of nighttime sleep (I’d rather have that,
personally.) My third child is 13 months, so I’m back to being home
in the afternoon for naptime, which is nice, so much better than
the two nap schedule, but it does limit what I can get
done!
@Caroline, my theory is that
at least some kids can’t re-cycle into sleep unless they have been
up for a minimum number of hours. That number gets larger as they
get bigger and older, and the amount of sleep it takes to trigger
“I’ve slept” gets smaller. I remember the same thing happening with
the 2 to 1 nap transition–bonk in the car for 10 minutes in the
morning and nope, no nap at all for the day. But that’s why I’m so
anti-nap at this point in Mouse’s life–the delay of bedtime is in
no way balanced by the refreshment of the nap, so it basically
steals night sleep. As long as you can go with it, you can work
with it, you know?
For the 3+ ages- my friend
swears by giving her daughter 3 flowers/stars/whatever each night-
if she leaves her room she has to give up a flower/star/etc. If at
the end of the week she has 12 or more left- she gets to pick out
something special. I will do this once I think mine will get
it…not sure she is ready.
My son, at 2.5, can’t open
the slightly sticky door of his bedroom with ease(yay!) and has
translated this to all bedrooms, so he stays in his room even when
he’s done sleeping and just yaks to himself, his toys, his light,
his sound machine…Then when I go get him in the morning he says,
“Go away mommy! I sleeping in!” even though he’s been blabbing to
himself for 30 minutes!
The whole year of two was
about resisting sleep, for us. For the first half, she wouldn’t go
down for her nap (but clearly needed it). So I’d put her down and
make her stay in her room (with potty breaks) for at least an hour.
At 2.5, she started napping again, but then laying in bed talking
to herself until almost 10-11 every night (and demanding potty
breaks intermittently). We hit a sweet spot just after 3, when she
outgrew her nap (one day I put her down and 10 miutes later she
walked out of her room, cheerful as can be. I tried for a couple of
weeks to keep the nap routine up, but it was clearly over). Now she
goes to bed at 7 and wakes up at 7.
Look at your kid’s sleep
times and see if you are using old standards for a kid that no
longer needs that much sleep. Plus some kid’s body clocks are
different. I try to adjust for my night owls by having them get
lunches,clothes, backpacks ready the night before so they can sleep
a little later in the morning.
The minute our daughter
turned three bedtime changed. She had been a 1.5 hour napper, 8 pm
to bed, then suddenly she Was Not Sleepy until 9:45 or 10,
consistently and suddenly. She’d just hang out in her bed, talking,
singing, counting her toes, not remotely ready to sleep. Then
getting her up for school was a nightmare.
Posted by: paola |
January 31, 2008 at 10:03 AM
My best recommendation for 8
and up (and really, for younger, but it is FABULOUS for the mental
skills of the 8+ crowd) is Parent Effectiveness Training. It’s kind
of a mind-warping read, because so much of what we assume is
normal/right is kind of tossed out the window. But it’s likewise
affirming because what they say lines up more with what REALITY is
like. P.E.T. is available on Amazon, etc. I read every blessed
parenting book I can get my hands on – more tools, more things to
try. This one is kind of like the master level, above How to Talk,
and so many others. Highly detailed, loads of examples, a whole
progression to getting through it. Read it cover to cover, straight
through – this is not for dipping in. It was moving to that method
(over time – it takes TIME and lots of returning to remind myself)
that has made the most difference. The skills they help you learn
work through adulthood (I use it at work as well – not that I was
yelling at work, but identifying what the problem is, who it
belongs to, and trying to work out the problem solution to win-win,
etc.). It sounds simple, and is, except it is contrary to what
we’ve been taught.
lately we’ve been noticing
that she goes down ok (relatively) but will stay awake for a
looooong time in her crib, playing with her animals, reading her
books, singing, whatever. MOSTLY she doesn’t ask to get up (i guess
since we say no) but it really sucks when we are ready to go to bed
a few hours later (!!) and she is still up- then she chats with us
as we are trying to go to sleep! then other nights she goes off to
sleep normally. weird.
We are still in a crib
thankfully….and I am hoping we will stay there for at least
another 6 months (Alex is 2y3m). He still uses a sleep sack, so
that has inhibited any vertical exploration. I have had friends who
have warned me that at about 2 1/2 they fool you into thinking that
they are done with their naps because of all this bedtime
difficulty, but to just power through it. I have lots of sympathy
for you, but not much else in the way of ideas.
Posted by: hedra |
January 31, 2008 at 12:39 PM
Posted by: hedra |
January 31, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Posted by: Caroline |
January 31, 2008 at 01:23 PM
We cut out the nap, and lo
and behold at 7:00 she would put her head down and close her eyes
and go to sleep. Then wake up bright eyed at 6:30, exactly when we
need her to. Bliss.
Glad to know I’m not
alone.
I stuck some comments at the
end of the Check Yourselves post that cover this, really. Yelling
is just the symptom. The real problem isn’t the yelling. And the
frustration that leads to yelling is also just a symptom. The fact
that peoples needs are in conflict and are remaining in conflict is
what is the real problem. Solve that, and the frustration and
yelling just GOES AWAY. (Until the next problem shows up, but the
more we do this, the easier it gets to spot the problem sooner, and
dodge the frustration sooner, and maybe even skip the yelling
entirely.)
Posted by: Monica |
January 31, 2008 at 02:00 PM
Posted by: sue |
January 31, 2008 at 10:55 AM
Posted by: hedra |
January 31, 2008 at 11:44 AM
don’t even get me started
about her deciding to get up at some ungodly early hour after a
late night. and then being a cranky hot mess all morning b/c of it.
yippee.
Jo Ann- I just thought of
something while I was reading your post- could you daughter be
having acid reflux? I’m nine months pregnant, and after I eat
supper and then sit/lie down before bed, I get really bad heartburn
and to a kid that could feel like a stomachache or sore throat or
something.
One friend had her husband
put a lock on the outside of older daughter’s door. When I heard
this (before kids BTW) I was SHOCKED. That sounded like it was
bordering on child abuse. But when the alternative is
parent/younger sibling abuse in the form of sleep deprivation, it
started to make sense. She could basically do whatever she wanted
to in her room, could not get out of it, so she was safe. They
often found her asleep pressed up against her dresser with an
assortment of puzzles around her (and puzzle pieces stuck to her
forehead) but hey. Whatever works. Of course this would only work
if kids were not sharing a bedroom.
I noticed around 2.5 years
old my child ( he has just turned three)had trouble with sleep, but
I put it down to a number of factors:
My son is just two and he
does the same thing – lies awake in his crib for 30 – 90 minutes.
He jumps up & down, talks to himself, rolls arounds, etc. We
just let him be but it does worry me ’cause I know he isn’t getting
enough sleep. He is still an early riser (ugh!) whether he’s asleep
earlier or later. We have a very predictable, lengthy bedtime
routine so he knows what to expect. I’m wondering if I should
shorten his nap (1.5-2 hrs right now) and maybe that would help? He
just clearly doesn’t seem tired at his bedtime unless he’s had a
couple late nights and then he’ll doze off early. We’ve definitely
accepted the ‘give him the opportunity and it’s his decision to
sleep or not’ but it’s hard when you know you’re getting a cranky
toddler the next day! He has always fallen on the lesser end of
‘needed sleep’ for his age range – oh, joy! I’m incredibly bitter
towards my friends who have 12+ hr toddler sleepers! We are
dreading the day he moves out of crib – at least now he’s
contained!
Mine is three in May, too,
and doing the same stuff. I had no idea this was a “thing”. Wow,
now I’ll stop screaming at her (so much).
That said, we had one great
night this week, where it only took a half-hour to get the kids all
ready and in bed. And while the elder two stayed up chatting
together for a half-hour after that, they settled down promptly
when reminded. M fell asleep right after that, and R… well, she
was up talking to herself juuuust enough to keep me awake for about
another hour, off and on. But she was being ‘quiet’ (just not
‘silent’). But that was pretty good, all in all. I do find the
sundown clocks helped a lot, but I’m thinking about trying the
blue-light ones, that re-set your body clock to make it easier to
fall asleep. Even that takes about an hour of exposure for it to
work, though.
Now, after several months,
she’s back to stalling at bedtime, but she has a baby sister coming
any day, so all bets are off.
I’m so glad this is
happening to someone else. No offense or anything. I really thought
it was just me. And then my almost 3 year old gets up in the middle
of the night as well.
I guess my question is – is
the child clearly tired but resisting sleep, or is the child not
actually tired? If the former, you’ve got a sleep problem; if the
latter, it’s more of a household organizational problem. My
daughter had mandated 2+ hour naps in daycare until she left it at
almost 4. She slept for them, because the alternative was lying on
a mat quietly in the dark (boring!). We didn’t even try to start
the bedtime routine until 9pm for the year she was three. She just
was not tired. Pre-K started, no nap – she tumbled into bed at 8pm.
If dropping the 2.5 year old’s nap (or substituting ‘quiet play
time in your room’) isn’t an option, what you’re doing now is the
best solution, I think. Because no 5 year old is going to accept an
earlier bedtime than his 2 year old brother, and clearly the 5 year
old needs the sleep!
Oh wow! My 2.5 yr old has
been a bear about waking up lately. It hasn’t been long enough yet
to be a true regression but maybe it is. Thank you for bringing it
up.
Posted by: Shandra |
January 31, 2008 at 10:27 AM
Posted by: jessica |
January 31, 2008 at 03:27 PM
Posted by: Julie |
January 31, 2008 at 03:39 PM
I had no idea that’s what
was going on! DS will be three in about 5 weeks.
Posted by: Ellen |
January 31, 2008 at 02:48 PM
Posted by: meg |
January 31, 2008 at 12:00 PM
8-10 years seemed pretty
sane. A bit of ‘sneaking reading in’ kind of stuff, but not too
bad. We haven’t got past that age, so far. Problem-solving has
helped some, with making them aware of the reason they feel tired,
and asking them BEFORE bedtime to come up with a solution for it. I
think ‘get to bed on time’ has been on our daily goals list for at
least two years. Because the slightest thing will set it off-kilter
and then we’re up later than we can deal with (any of
us).
Posted by: rudyinparis |
January 31, 2008 at 10:37 AM
Oh and this too shall pass.
WAAAAY too fast. I know people tell you that, and it seems cliched,
but it’s so true. I have a child looking at college. She is here
only another two years, yet it seems like yesterday she was a
preschooler or a baby. Don’t lose your mind over the sleep stuff,
it’s over quick.
Posted by: GG |
January 31, 2008 at 03:35 PM
holy crap! us too! and pnut
won’t be 3 til july…
Posted by: Aaron |
January 31, 2008 at 01:04 PM
If it makes you feel any
better (along the lines of misery loves company) my sister’s 2 1/2
year old has learned how to make himself puke when he doesn’t get
what he wants. Yesterday he did it in the car. Could be soooo much
worse, huh?
We went through a similar
situation with our 3 year old. What seemed to help is to change her
nap time to a rest time of reading books or watching a video. She
was tired at bedtime and went to sleep within minutes of putting
her head down. I was a little nervous getting rid of her nap
because she just turned 3, but it turns out she sleeps more now
because she doesn’t struggle at bedtime and will sleep until the
morning…most nights.
Posted by: Charisse |
January 31, 2008 at 01:36 PM
Um, yeah. Glad you didn’t
ask for advice, Moxie, as I don’t have any. We have long since
given up on the idea of her falling asleep promptly at bedtime, but
we work so hard to enforce the “you don’t have to sleep, but you
must stay in bed” rule. We both go nearly crazy with frustration,
though, as this rule we so consistently state and enforce (when she
gets up, we state the rule and shoo her back to bed, or walk her
back to bed with no fanfare)–I mean, it just doesn’t bode well for
her teenage years, frankly–DH and I look it each other with
bafflement and say “She just doesn’t do it, what more can we do?” I
hope it’s a phase, although it seems more like Just The Way She
Is.
Posted by: hedra |
January 31, 2008 at 12:40 PM
You guys are freaking me out
N is 7 months old on Saturday and we are fighting to get her to
sleep through the night right now. I’m not looking forward to
fighting with her to get her to go to bed in a couple
years.
In Mouse’s case she’s never
needed a ton of sleep and the 2 1/2 stuff was much improved by
limiting–eliminating when possible and shortening otherwise–the
naps she took at daycare and making sure she gets plenty of
exercise. Plenty for her is a lot–if it’s a rainy day, she’s not
going to be down before 10–and if there’s even a 15-minute nap it
will be 11. If she takes an hour nap (which we put the kybosh on a
year or more ago for this reason) she’s fully capable of 1am. Yeah.
In our house naps are considered the work of the devil, and I
constantly negotiate with preschool to outright prevent them.
Lately they happen maybe once a week, and they wake her after 20
mins, so it’s dealable.
All this makes me wonder if
maybe not-sleeping is the normal, and the sleeping-well phases are
the anomalies… scary thought.
I am still desperately
to sleep
trying to get my two stepkids (daughter is 6, son is
alone. My stepdaughter finally has her own room and she likes it
that way- her brother still wants to sleep with her, except she
can’t sleep with him in her bed because he kicks and steals the
covers and it pisses her off because it’s HER room and he has his
OWN room. Sigh. It never ends.
Of course, all my smugness
bit me in the butt, because she suddenly became afraid of the dark,
and monsters about 2 weeks ago, and now wakes up screaming several
times a night.
Posted by: Sidney |
January 31, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Posted by: Katie |
January 31, 2008 at 11:52 AM
GG…brilliant. Way better
than my “lock them in their room” idea. Thanks!!!
And yes, we’ve coped by
letting her into our FULL-size bed. Now there’s four of us – me,
hubby, baby, toddler. Soooo annoying.
It’s not as bad as when they
are young and it comes and goes, I couldn’t give you specific ages,
and I wouldn’t call it regression. They get anxious about school or
they do too much during the day and can’t wind down until long
after we would expect them to be asleep. It’s happening on and off
with my 10 year old and my 5 year old. The key is to make deals
with them, like stay in your room, lights off, etc. I tell my kids
that laying there with their eyes closed is actually beneficial and
sometimes they will believe me.
Posted by: jessica |
January 31, 2008 at 03:30 PM
Anyone else remember their
parents checking in on them late at night and pretending to have
fallen asleep reading – because they weren’t going to yell at me
and wake me up if I’d finally fallen asleep, but if I’d still been
‘awake’ …
Posted by: hedra |
January 31, 2008 at 10:17 AM
Posted by: Caroline |
January 31, 2008 at 01:15 PM
Posted by: pnuts mama |
January 31, 2008 at 02:51 PM
Posted by: Ally |
January 31, 2008 at 10:27 AM
Just read Charisse’s comment
and I second the bit about how ANY nap messes things up. 5 minutes
in the car, her body thinks it’s all rested up, that’ll throw off
bedtime by an hour ans a half. What is that about?
Another friend built a
special “nest” in mom and dad’s room for little one to climb into
in the middle of the night. The nest was some pillows, soft
blankets, next to their bed so if she wanted to sleep “with” them,
it wasn’t WITH them. Seemed to be special enough to be good enough,
but not so great that her own bed didn’t feel just a little bit
better.
Posted by: Catherine
|
January 31, 2008 at 10:36 AM
The problem is that our kids
don’t sleep in past 8:00 no matter how late they were up, so it
takes days to catch up from one late night. We try to be very
consistent with quiet reading in bed and a regular bedtime, so they
don’t get too tired. Can’t think of anything else to
try…
Luckily our daughter doesn’t
ever want to nap, we just used to run into trouble with the
occasional late-afternoon car trip. Discovered that the i-phone is
the best toy ever for the stay-awake-at-all-costs occasion. YouTube
videos of puppies and kittens will prevent any nap.
Posted by: JB |
January 31, 2008 at 01:01 PM
Posted by: HollyRhea |
January 31, 2008 at 12:55 PM
Yeah, six (maybe 5 1/2-6).
And yeah, three (two of them, with different delaying tactics). Can
I say I’m really tired right now? Having a cold doesn’t
help.
She’ll go through brief
phases of sleep disturbances, usually calling for her dad (yay) in
the middle of the night, and he’ll go lie with her (why we went
straight from crib to twin bed), but these always pass within a
week or so.
Posted by: Jo Ann |
January 31, 2008 at 10:10 AM